Picture Quality and Color Space Evaluation
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There have been some discussion regarding SATV's picture quality. A gradient/banding problem has also been reported. A member here ([color="green"][b]Snaaaake[/b][/color]) had contacted me regarding this. I have also seen banding on certain resolution/colorspace outputs. It can be easily noticed on Netflix startup logo. We will need to have some sort of objective evaluation before we can actually comment on these issues. Spears and Munsil HD Benchmark disc has a Color Space Evaluation test pattern that provides a lot of information on factors that can affect picture quality. Chroma upsampling plays an important role in this. I would like some of you to test this pattern and score it. Here is the test pattern: [b]MKV[/b] - [url]https://mega.nz#!tJ8DxCwA!ZPmrxQ_liw6hETPyK1DIBkTzeAhxdOXvBUMPmcMf8tU[/url] [b]MP4[/b] - [url]https://mega.nz/#!RIESSLRQ!9UyqNc6QgaicLPkAHObL0kcRdBNMnXMJar0uedYXFU8[/url] You will find all the information that you need to score this test pattern here: http://www.spearsandmunsil.com/portfolio/choosing-a-color-space-2/ Score the test pattern on these parameters: [olist] [.]Chroma alignment[/.] [.]High-frequency detail[/.] [.]Upsampling[/.] [.]Smooth Diagonals[/.] [.]Clean Ramps[/.] [.]White Clipping[/.] [.]Chroma Clipping[/.] [.]Red, Green and Blue Clipping[/.] [.]BT.709[/.] [.]Chroma Range[/.] [/olist] For 1-4, just identify what kind of algorithm is likley being used - bicubic/bilinear/nearest neighbor For 5 check whether you can see any banding on the ramp patterns, esp. on the red and blue horizontal ramp patterns For 6-10 look for clipping and chroma range as described in the test pattern help page. This actually depends on how you have set your display. If it is set incorrectly, these tests become irrelevant. I found SATV do not so good on many parameters, but I will wait and see what you folks find.
There have been some discussion regarding SATV's picture quality. A gradient/banding problem has also been reported. A member here (Snaaaake) had contacted me regarding this. I have also seen banding on certain resolution/colorspace outputs. It can be easily noticed on Netflix startup logo.

We will need to have some sort of objective evaluation before we can actually comment on these issues. Spears and Munsil HD Benchmark disc has a Color Space Evaluation test pattern that provides a lot of information on factors that can affect picture quality. Chroma upsampling plays an important role in this. I would like some of you to test this pattern and score it.

Here is the test pattern:
MKV - https://mega.nz#!tJ8DxCwA!ZPmrxQ_liw6hETPyK1DIBkTzeAhxdOXvBUMPmcMf8tU
MP4 - https://mega.nz/#!RIESSLRQ!9UyqNc6QgaicLPkAHObL0kcRdBNMnXMJar0uedYXFU8



You will find all the information that you need to score this test pattern here:
http://www.spearsandmunsil.com/portfolio/choosing-a-color-space-2/

Score the test pattern on these parameters:

  1. Chroma alignment
  2. High-frequency detail
  3. Upsampling
  4. Smooth Diagonals
  5. Clean Ramps
  6. White Clipping
  7. Chroma Clipping
  8. Red, Green and Blue Clipping
  9. BT.709
  10. Chroma Range

For 1-4, just identify what kind of algorithm is likley being used - bicubic/bilinear/nearest neighbor

For 5 check whether you can see any banding on the ramp patterns, esp. on the red and blue horizontal ramp patterns

For 6-10 look for clipping and chroma range as described in the test pattern help page. This actually depends on how you have set your display. If it is set incorrectly, these tests become irrelevant.

I found SATV do not so good on many parameters, but I will wait and see what you folks find.

#1
Posted 11/12/2015 04:46 AM   
[olist] [.]Chroma alignment : [u]Nearest neighbor[/u][/.] [.]High-frequency detail : [u]Nearest neighbor[/u][/.] [.]Upsampling : [u]Nearest neighbor[/u][/.] [.]Smooth Diagonals : [u]Nearest neighbor[/u][/.] [.]Clean Ramps : [u]BAD[/u][/.] [.]White Clipping : [u]BAD[/u][/.] [.]Chroma Clipping : [u]BAD[/u][/.] [.]Red, Green and Blue Clipping : [u]BAD[/u][/.] [.]BT.709 : [u]No Square[/u][/.] [.]Chroma Range : [u]BAD[/u][/.] [/olist] There is my results, it's bad, i hope an update will be made realy fast. :) Could you give your results too please.
  1. Chroma alignment : Nearest neighbor
  2. High-frequency detail : Nearest neighbor
  3. Upsampling : Nearest neighbor
  4. Smooth Diagonals : Nearest neighbor
  5. Clean Ramps : BAD
  6. White Clipping : BAD
  7. Chroma Clipping : BAD
  8. Red, Green and Blue Clipping : BAD
  9. BT.709 : No Square
  10. Chroma Range : BAD


There is my results, it's bad, i hope an update will be made realy fast. :)

Could you give your results too please.

#2
Posted 11/12/2015 10:48 AM   
[quote="Snaaaake"] Could you give your results too please.[/quote] I got the exact same results as yours. I didn't think that it would be this bad.
Snaaaake said:
Could you give your results too please.

I got the exact same results as yours. I didn't think that it would be this bad.

#3
Posted 11/12/2015 04:21 PM   
Yep, same results here. The banding seems mostly only noticeable where gradient colors are used such as in logos, like the Netflix logo or Marvel logo.
Yep, same results here.

The banding seems mostly only noticeable where gradient colors are used such as in logos, like the Netflix logo or Marvel logo.

Image

#4
Posted 11/12/2015 04:56 PM   
I'll try mine later on tonight but judging by the responses here so far, I think I know what to expect. The funny thing is, with the exception of the 2.0 bug, I Have no complaints with picture quality. Either my eyes are getting terrible (not that hard to believe) or I'm a lot less picky then I thought I was.
I'll try mine later on tonight but judging by the responses here so far, I think I know what to expect. The funny thing is, with the exception of the 2.0 bug, I Have no complaints with picture quality. Either my eyes are getting terrible (not that hard to believe) or I'm a lot less picky then I thought I was.

#5
Posted 11/12/2015 05:12 PM   
All the Android players that I have checked so far seem to be using the inferior nearest neighbor upsampling, but some did a better job in the high frequency detail test. All of them failed the diagonal pattern test. The same can be said about the color ramps. Banding seems to be more pronounced on SATV.
All the Android players that I have checked so far seem to be using the inferior nearest neighbor upsampling, but some did a better job in the high frequency detail test. All of them failed the diagonal pattern test. The same can be said about the color ramps. Banding seems to be more pronounced on SATV.

#6
Posted 11/12/2015 05:34 PM   
Hello Friends, Can you please provide the results for another device connected to the same TV? If your TV is set incorrectly, you will get bad results regardless of the input. The only way to truly know it's not your TV and it's the shield is to provide comparison results with another device.
Hello Friends, Can you please provide the results for another device connected to the same TV?

If your TV is set incorrectly, you will get bad results regardless of the input. The only way to truly know it's not your TV and it's the shield is to provide comparison results with another device.

#7
Posted 11/12/2015 06:53 PM   
[u]Xbox One with mode Standard[/u] : [olist] [.]Chroma alignment : [u]Bicubic or bilinear[/u][/.] [.]High-frequency detail : [u]Bicubic or bilinear[/u][/.] [.]Upsampling : [u]Bicubic or bilinear[/u][/.] [.]Smooth Diagonals : [u]Nearest[/u][/.] [.]Clean Ramps : [u]Good[/u][/.] [.]White Clipping : [u]Good[/u][/.] [.]Chroma Clipping : [u]Good[/u][/.] [.]Red, Green and Blue Clipping : [u]Good[/u][/.] [.]BT.709 : [u]BT.709[/u][/.] [.]Chroma Range : [u]BAD[/u][/.] [/olist] [u]Xbox One with mode PC RGB[/u] : [olist] [.]Chroma alignment : [u]Nearest neighbor[/u][/.] [.]High-frequency detail : [u]Bicubic or bilinear[/u][/.] [.]Upsampling : [u]Bicubic or bilinear[/u][/.] [.]Smooth Diagonals : [u]Bicubic[/u][/.] [.]Clean Ramps : [u]Good[/u][/.] [.]White Clipping : [u]BAD[/u][/.] [.]Chroma Clipping : [u]BAD[/u][/.] [.]Red, Green and Blue Clipping : [u]BAD[/u][/.] [.]BT.709 : [u]No Square[/u][/.] [.]Chroma Range : [u]BAD[/u][/.] [/olist] [u]Samsung HU7500 direct from the TV[/u] : [olist] [.]Chroma alignment : [u]Nearest neighbor[/u][/.] [.]High-frequency detail : [u]Bicubic or bilinear[/u][/.] [.]Upsampling : [u]Bicubic or bilinear[/u][/.] [.]Smooth Diagonals : [u]Nearest neighbor[/u][/.] [.]Clean Ramps : [u]Good[/u][/.] [.]White Clipping : [u]Good[/u][/.] [.]Chroma Clipping : [u]Good[/u][/.] [.]Red, Green and Blue Clipping : [u]Good[/u][/.] [.]BT.709 : [u]BT.709[/u][/.] [.]Chroma Range : [u]BAD[/u][/.] [/olist] I have tried with PS4 but the console doesn't support mkv with the media player app...
Xbox One with mode Standard :
  1. Chroma alignment : Bicubic or bilinear
  2. High-frequency detail : Bicubic or bilinear
  3. Upsampling : Bicubic or bilinear
  4. Smooth Diagonals : Nearest
  5. Clean Ramps : Good
  6. White Clipping : Good
  7. Chroma Clipping : Good
  8. Red, Green and Blue Clipping : Good
  9. BT.709 : BT.709
  10. Chroma Range : BAD


Xbox One with mode PC RGB :
  1. Chroma alignment : Nearest neighbor
  2. High-frequency detail : Bicubic or bilinear
  3. Upsampling : Bicubic or bilinear
  4. Smooth Diagonals : Bicubic
  5. Clean Ramps : Good
  6. White Clipping : BAD
  7. Chroma Clipping : BAD
  8. Red, Green and Blue Clipping : BAD
  9. BT.709 : No Square
  10. Chroma Range : BAD


Samsung HU7500 direct from the TV :
  1. Chroma alignment : Nearest neighbor
  2. High-frequency detail : Bicubic or bilinear
  3. Upsampling : Bicubic or bilinear
  4. Smooth Diagonals : Nearest neighbor
  5. Clean Ramps : Good
  6. White Clipping : Good
  7. Chroma Clipping : Good
  8. Red, Green and Blue Clipping : Good
  9. BT.709 : BT.709
  10. Chroma Range : BAD



I have tried with PS4 but the console doesn't support mkv with the media player app...

#8
Posted 11/12/2015 08:04 PM   
Here all my test on this pic too see more clearly : http://1drv.ms/1lmdsx7
Here all my test on this pic too see more clearly : http://1drv.ms/1lmdsx7

#9
Posted 11/12/2015 08:20 PM   
Here are the frame captures from three different devices. These are real time frame captures using a Blackmagic Design Decklink Extreme 4K 12G capture card. The first picture is from SATV, second is from Sony BDP-S5200 Blu-ray Player and the third from Google Nexus Player. The test patterns were played in Kodi 16 Alpha for SATV and Google Nexus Player. I did not find any difference between Kodi 15.2 or the native video player on SATV. There is no native video player on Google Nexus Player Marshmallow (at least I don't know how to access the player). It is quite obvious that the second one is the best. Google Nexus Player still has the black level/gamma problem, that is the reason why it looks washed out. If not for the black level and consequent banding issue, Google Nexus Player does a better job than SATV. If you go to the album you will be able to zoom the images and see more details. Album link: http://imgur.com/a/GXfwm SATV [img]http://imgur.com/klgHa0t.png[/img] Sony BDP-S5200 Blu-ray Player [img]http://imgur.com/ZHJxkKz.png[/img] Google Nexus Player [img]http://imgur.com/pgTqdPQ.png[/img]
Here are the frame captures from three different devices. These are real time frame captures using a Blackmagic Design Decklink Extreme 4K 12G capture card.

The first picture is from SATV, second is from Sony BDP-S5200 Blu-ray Player and the third from Google Nexus Player. The test patterns were played in Kodi 16 Alpha for SATV and Google Nexus Player. I did not find any difference between Kodi 15.2 or the native video player on SATV. There is no native video player on Google Nexus Player Marshmallow (at least I don't know how to access the player).

It is quite obvious that the second one is the best. Google Nexus Player still has the black level/gamma problem, that is the reason why it looks washed out. If not for the black level and consequent banding issue, Google Nexus Player does a better job than SATV.

If you go to the album you will be able to zoom the images and see more details.
Album link: http://imgur.com/a/GXfwm

SATV
Image

Sony BDP-S5200 Blu-ray Player
Image

Google Nexus Player
Image

#10
Posted 11/13/2015 08:49 AM   
Holy cow! nVIDIA are you seeing this? I'm shocked!!
Holy cow! nVIDIA are you seeing this?

I'm shocked!!

#11
Posted 11/13/2015 11:07 AM   
It appears the SATV also has elevated black levels relative to the Sony S5200. Hopefully Nvidia commits to fixes these issues for the next update. Thanks wesk05 for getting frame captures. At this point there is no debating the issues.
It appears the SATV also has elevated black levels relative to the Sony S5200. Hopefully Nvidia commits to fixes these issues for the next update.

Thanks wesk05 for getting frame captures. At this point there is no debating the issues.

#12
Posted 11/13/2015 12:46 PM   
Well, it wasn't encouraging when i read that the 2.1 update "Improves HDMI black levels". From improved to excellent is quite a distance.
Well, it wasn't encouraging when i read that the 2.1 update "Improves HDMI black levels".

From improved to excellent is quite a distance.

#13
Posted 11/13/2015 08:15 PM   
ManualG, Can we get a comment on this?
ManualG,

Can we get a comment on this?

#14
Posted 11/14/2015 02:04 AM   
[quote="drhill"] It appears the SATV also has elevated black levels relative to the Sony S5200. Hopefully Nvidia commits to fixes these issues for the next update. At this point there is no debating the issues.[/quote] Black levels are not really elevated on SATV. It appears that way relative to the Sony S5200 because the image is perceptually better on the Sony probably due to better chroma upsampling algorithm. SATV does seem to be clipping above ~223. From the pattern test it seems that on SATV 223-235 is output as 235. The issues that need to be addressed are: 1) Luma and Chroma clipping 2) Color space issue 3) Better algorithm for upsampling (Bicubic/Bilinear) @[color="green"]drhill[/color]: can you edit your post and remove the links to the images that are present in the quote. It is making the post unnecessarily longer.
drhill said:
It appears the SATV also has elevated black levels relative to the Sony S5200. Hopefully Nvidia commits to fixes these issues for the next update.

At this point there is no debating the issues.

Black levels are not really elevated on SATV. It appears that way relative to the Sony S5200 because the image is perceptually better on the Sony probably due to better chroma upsampling algorithm. SATV does seem to be clipping above ~223. From the pattern test it seems that on SATV 223-235 is output as 235.

The issues that need to be addressed are:

1) Luma and Chroma clipping
2) Color space issue
3) Better algorithm for upsampling (Bicubic/Bilinear)

@drhill: can you edit your post and remove the links to the images that are present in the quote. It is making the post unnecessarily longer.

#15
Posted 11/14/2015 05:10 AM   
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