GTX 970 Frame times, STUTTERING, low GPU usage, Source games mainly affected (CSGO, Dota2)
  1 / 5    
Hey guys I recently got a MSI GTX 970... but no matter what FPS I have, 30/60/144 it feels stuttery and not smooth all the time! It's ruining every game... I just had a new PSU too (RM 650) so I know it's not a power issue. Here are 2 graphs, the first one is running CSGO on my PC with the GTX 970 The second is on my brothers PC with a 660. [url]http://i.imgur.com/gRgonxV.png[/url] GTX 970 [url]http://i.imgur.com/dH5VFh1.png[/url] GTX 660 Both games run at the same settings also, the 660 even averages higher FPS... is my card defective? I never had this problem with my GTX 560 before it died.
Hey guys I recently got a MSI GTX 970... but no matter what FPS I have, 30/60/144 it feels stuttery and not smooth all the time!

It's ruining every game... I just had a new PSU too (RM 650) so I know it's not a power issue.

Here are 2 graphs, the first one is running CSGO on my PC with the GTX 970
The second is on my brothers PC with a 660.

http://i.imgur.com/gRgonxV.png GTX 970
http://i.imgur.com/dH5VFh1.png GTX 660

Both games run at the same settings also, the 660 even averages higher FPS... is my card defective? I never had this problem with my GTX 560 before it died.

#1
Posted 05/21/2015 10:51 PM   
Could the 970 be defective? Possibly. But there's no way I can give you any kind of definitive answer even if you ran through a battery of tests (other than swapping to another 970 and popping your 970 in another system). Use MSI AfterBurner to log some data. Try to see if you can correlate stutters and whatnot with anything going on in the log. A deficient in power might show as a rise in voltage that unsteadily levels out (like its bouncing off a ceiling, even though you haven't hit the voltage limit). Temps could be hitting a thermal limit, etc. It also logs CPU usage and temp (plus system ram and page file usage).
Could the 970 be defective? Possibly. But there's no way I can give you any kind of definitive answer even if you ran through a battery of tests (other than swapping to another 970 and popping your 970 in another system).

Use MSI AfterBurner to log some data. Try to see if you can correlate stutters and whatnot with anything going on in the log. A deficient in power might show as a rise in voltage that unsteadily levels out (like its bouncing off a ceiling, even though you haven't hit the voltage limit). Temps could be hitting a thermal limit, etc. It also logs CPU usage and temp (plus system ram and page file usage).

X99-a/i7-5820k/RipJaw 32 GB/Titan X SLI + Strix 970/blah blah blah (dead? Not yet, but close)

x299 SLI PLUS, i9-7900x, 32 GB Trident RGB), 1080ti SC2 Hybrid

#2
Posted 05/21/2015 11:20 PM   
I've already checked all of these with Afterburner. Temps are fine, never above 65c, CPU/RAM and pagefile are completely normal. Voltages never spike or drop, just consistent throughout. The strange thing is.. it doesn't happen in Battlefield Hardline.. it's the only game that's problem free. The strange thing is even with CSGO maxed out and an uncapped framerate.. it will just sit at lower FPS, but if I enable DSR and crank the res as high as it'll go until the GPU hits 95% usage, the frames then go higher..... it's so weird. Even when the frames are higher the microstutter still persists though.
I've already checked all of these with Afterburner.

Temps are fine, never above 65c, CPU/RAM and pagefile are completely normal.

Voltages never spike or drop, just consistent throughout.
The strange thing is.. it doesn't happen in Battlefield Hardline.. it's the only game that's problem free.

The strange thing is even with CSGO maxed out and an uncapped framerate.. it will just sit at lower FPS, but if I enable DSR and crank the res as high as it'll go until the GPU hits 95% usage, the frames then go higher..... it's so weird.

Even when the frames are higher the microstutter still persists though.

#3
Posted 05/21/2015 11:55 PM   
ur GPU usage is low when u play it no? bcus we are many with the same problem with GTX960/970. i have the same problem with CS GO. but not with BF3/4/hardline.
ur GPU usage is low when u play it no? bcus we are many with the same problem with GTX960/970.

i have the same problem with CS GO. but not with BF3/4/hardline.

#4
Posted 05/22/2015 04:01 AM   
Your brother's 660 is exhibiting the same degree of frametime variance, both of your 1% and 0.1% times have almost the same degree of variation from your given averages. Yes probably what Xxz21 is trying to say there is a rather well documented bug on this forum several hundred posts about the 970 low gpu usage bug. Essentially some are having the exact same problem, games (typically older games) that require very little of the GPU will result in unexpectedly low framerates and low usage. If you have no issues with a more GPU intensive game I would consider that you have this bug. Also this is pretty much a given now but switch the Power mode in Nvidia control panel to prefer maximum performance for the specific programs, do not do it globally as the card will ramp up to max clocks for every single task it does. This should really ALWAYS be done with DX9 games especially due to them having a tendency to vary GPU usage more.
Your brother's 660 is exhibiting the same degree of frametime variance, both of your 1% and 0.1% times have almost the same degree of variation from your given averages. Yes probably what Xxz21 is trying to say there is a rather well documented bug on this forum several hundred posts about the 970 low gpu usage bug. Essentially some are having the exact same problem, games (typically older games) that require very little of the GPU will result in unexpectedly low framerates and low usage. If you have no issues with a more GPU intensive game I would consider that you have this bug. Also this is pretty much a given now but switch the Power mode in Nvidia control panel to prefer maximum performance for the specific programs, do not do it globally as the card will ramp up to max clocks for every single task it does. This should really ALWAYS be done with DX9 games especially due to them having a tendency to vary GPU usage more.

CPU: I7 4790K adaptive 4.6ghz @ 1.235v (LOL) Noctua nh-d14 | GPU: ASUS Strix GTX 1070 | MB: ASUS Maximus VII hero | RAM: Corsair vengeance pro 2400mhz CL11 8gb x2 | PSU: Seasonic Platinum 660w | Storage: Samsung 850 EVO 512gb x2 (RAID 0), MX100 250gb, WD Blue 1TB | OS: windows 10 64-bit | Display: ASUS VG248QE (144hz) | Audio: Asus Xonar DGX (Unixonar Low DPC driver) driving Sennheiser PC350 SE's , Schecter KM-7 into a Scarlett Focusrite Solo DI for recording

#5
Posted 05/22/2015 05:29 AM   
Yes my GPU utilisation is low when it's happening. I tried enabling DSR 4x which got the GPU working @ 96-99% but still had the microstutters (prefer maximum performance was on too rambokillar thanks!) I've noticed a trend with my googling and that huge nvidia thread, 95% of the people reporting this issue have an MSI 970 and it doesn't seem like nvidia will fix it with a driver update as they haven't replied in months. Well nearly every game on my PC except for BFH is unplayable and this just isn't acceptable to me. I've returned the MSI back to Amazon and am going to try a Asus 970 Strix as I couldn't find anyone having the same problem with this card. I'll update with the results when it gets here tomorrow.. if I still get the same microstutter with it, I'll try it in another rig.. if same results there, I'm going AMD... :(
Yes my GPU utilisation is low when it's happening. I tried enabling DSR 4x which got the GPU working @ 96-99% but still had the microstutters (prefer maximum performance was on too rambokillar thanks!)

I've noticed a trend with my googling and that huge nvidia thread, 95% of the people reporting this issue have an MSI 970 and it doesn't seem like nvidia will fix it with a driver update as they haven't replied in months.

Well nearly every game on my PC except for BFH is unplayable and this just isn't acceptable to me.
I've returned the MSI back to Amazon and am going to try a Asus 970 Strix as I couldn't find anyone having the same problem with this card.

I'll update with the results when it gets here tomorrow.. if I still get the same microstutter with it, I'll try it in another rig.. if same results there, I'm going AMD... :(

#6
Posted 05/22/2015 10:32 AM   
Oh rambokillar about the graph, check out all the chunks that are basically missing on the low end of the graph. The graph represents exactly how it feels ingame.. my brothers is smooth with a smooth variance in frametimes constantly, where as mine is smooth-stutter-smoooo-stutttttteeerrrr etc Don't look at the number, look more at the dots on the graph to tell the story. Also I'm getting regular spikes to 60-40ms per frame, brothers never goes above 20ms
Oh rambokillar about the graph, check out all the chunks that are basically missing on the low end of the graph.

The graph represents exactly how it feels ingame.. my brothers is smooth with a smooth variance in frametimes constantly, where as mine is smooth-stutter-smoooo-stutttttteeerrrr etc

Don't look at the number, look more at the dots on the graph to tell the story.
Also I'm getting regular spikes to 60-40ms per frame, brothers never goes above 20ms

#7
Posted 05/22/2015 10:34 AM   
Ah yes I apologize, I am familiar with FRAFs and usually only look to the graph but I have lately only been on the forums via phone and misinterpreted it due to the screen size, needing to refocus etc. Sounds like this is not a brand new build am I correct? If so did you not have any issues with the previous gpu? 900 series seems highly peculiar when it comes to performing properly in certain setups which is frustrating. I strongly urge you to take the new 970 you just received and use rivatuner statistics to limit the framerate to what you can comfortably sustain, I can vouch for RTSS having an incredible ability to pace frames accurately. I've had stuttering in numerous games with my brand new rig, I'd spend hours on this forum and god only knows how many hours troubleshooting, fresh windows installs multiple times over etc. You begin to assume it must be faulty hardware but using RTSS has alleviated almost every single problem in my particular case. I shared similar spikes to 60ms or above in many games, RTSS has caused my frametimes to absolutely flatline. My experience and trials has led me to several points is like to share with you when troubleshooting frametime problems to ensure that it is in fact the hardware at fault. What follows are the settings/tweaks etc. that should be tried in all different combinations to determine what gives you the best results. 1. V-sync or lack thereof, some games have a v-sync option in game however it is sometimes actually just pre-rendered frames or triple buffering without v-sync. For reasons I won't get into here triple buffering is ideal especially when sing v-sync it is almost a must have to combat some of that input lag. Double buffering v-sync will still have some stuttering. Do not use NVCP v-sync, triple buffering in the control panel does not work for DIrectX applications. So for the most part if the game does not have a v-sync option then ignore this step and have it off, not even adaptive v-sync. If the game does have it you will want to experiment with it's affect on frametime while simultaneously using RTSS 2. RTSS limiting! This should always be done, I cannot say enough good things about this program. There may be edge cases where it does not have a positive impact but I have yet to find it (outside of cpu bound scenarios but that is a different issue) 3. Full screen vs border less window. Some games have the option built in, others can be done via tweaks. A good rule of thumb here is if the game defaults to border less window there is probably a reason and more than likely this reason is that some games need to be in border less window to triple buffer correctly. At first you may find that you have slightly fewer fps in border less window, many see this and go to full screen for the maximum performance but this is a mistake. Losing fps in border less more than likely means that you are now paying the overhead for triple buffering.
Ah yes I apologize, I am familiar with FRAFs and usually only look to the graph but I have lately only been on the forums via phone and misinterpreted it due to the screen size, needing to refocus etc.

Sounds like this is not a brand new build am I correct? If so did you not have any issues with the previous gpu? 900 series seems highly peculiar when it comes to performing properly in certain setups which is frustrating.

I strongly urge you to take the new 970 you just received and use rivatuner statistics to limit the framerate to what you can comfortably sustain, I can vouch for RTSS having an incredible ability to pace frames accurately. I've had stuttering in numerous games with my brand new rig, I'd spend hours on this forum and god only knows how many hours troubleshooting, fresh windows installs multiple times over etc. You begin to assume it must be faulty hardware but using RTSS has alleviated almost every single problem in my particular case.

I shared similar spikes to 60ms or above in many games, RTSS has caused my frametimes to absolutely flatline. My experience and trials has led me to several points is like to share with you when troubleshooting frametime problems to ensure that it is in fact the hardware at fault.

What follows are the settings/tweaks etc. that should be tried in all different combinations to determine what gives you the best results.

1. V-sync or lack thereof, some games have a v-sync option in game however it is sometimes actually just pre-rendered frames or triple buffering without v-sync. For reasons I won't get into here triple buffering is ideal especially when sing v-sync it is almost a must have to combat some of that input lag. Double buffering v-sync will still have some stuttering. Do not use NVCP v-sync, triple buffering in the control panel does not work for DIrectX applications.
So for the most part if the game does not have a v-sync option then ignore this step and have it off, not even adaptive v-sync.
If the game does have it you will want to experiment with it's affect on frametime while simultaneously using RTSS

2. RTSS limiting! This should always be done, I cannot say enough good things about this program. There may be edge cases where it does not have a positive impact but I have yet to find it (outside of cpu bound scenarios but that is a different issue)

3. Full screen vs border less window. Some games have the option built in, others can be done via tweaks. A good rule of thumb here is if the game defaults to border less window there is probably a reason and more than likely this reason is that some games need to be in border less window to triple buffer correctly. At first you may find that you have slightly fewer fps in border less window, many see this and go to full screen for the maximum performance but this is a mistake. Losing fps in border less more than likely means that you are now paying the overhead for triple buffering.

CPU: I7 4790K adaptive 4.6ghz @ 1.235v (LOL) Noctua nh-d14 | GPU: ASUS Strix GTX 1070 | MB: ASUS Maximus VII hero | RAM: Corsair vengeance pro 2400mhz CL11 8gb x2 | PSU: Seasonic Platinum 660w | Storage: Samsung 850 EVO 512gb x2 (RAID 0), MX100 250gb, WD Blue 1TB | OS: windows 10 64-bit | Display: ASUS VG248QE (144hz) | Audio: Asus Xonar DGX (Unixonar Low DPC driver) driving Sennheiser PC350 SE's , Schecter KM-7 into a Scarlett Focusrite Solo DI for recording

#8
Posted 05/23/2015 10:56 PM   
yes i have the same exact problem with my EVGA GTX 960 SSC 2GB ACX 2.0+ low gpu usage with some games. this really sucks CPU never get more than 60-80% (depends on game) Nvidia does nothing to solve that. any response or anwser from theys. i have tryed all the possible solutions in forums/google but anything work. my card use 30-50% depends on the game. games like BF3/4/hardline run very well without problem.
yes i have the same exact problem with my EVGA GTX 960 SSC 2GB ACX 2.0+

low gpu usage with some games. this really sucks CPU never get more than 60-80% (depends on game)

Nvidia does nothing to solve that. any response or anwser from theys.

i have tryed all the possible solutions in forums/google but anything work.

my card use 30-50% depends on the game. games like BF3/4/hardline run very well without problem.

#9
Posted 05/24/2015 12:41 AM   
Thank you for the informative write up Rambo! Much appreciated I will test RTSS and lock it to 145fps and see how it goes. @ xXz21... I've come to the conclusion that the 900 series just doesn't like Source games, in L4D/CSGO/1.6/TF2 I have the same problem, stutters, low GPU utilization and just a bad playing game overall. Putting a GTX 560 or 660 into my system fixes it. All other games are unaffected and perform perfectly with the 970. Hopefully someone from nvidia see's this and releases a driver update for source games, if not.. I'm gonna have to get a 290x instead :\
Thank you for the informative write up Rambo! Much appreciated I will test RTSS and lock it to 145fps and see how it goes.

@ xXz21... I've come to the conclusion that the 900 series just doesn't like Source games, in L4D/CSGO/1.6/TF2 I have the same problem, stutters, low GPU utilization and just a bad playing game overall.

Putting a GTX 560 or 660 into my system fixes it.

All other games are unaffected and perform perfectly with the 970.

Hopefully someone from nvidia see's this and releases a driver update for source games, if not.. I'm gonna have to get a 290x instead :\

#10
Posted 05/25/2015 01:42 AM   
@ Rambo Just tried RTSS and locked the FPS, it does make it noticeably smoother, yet the stutter still persists? It's very strange, how have nvidia not fixed this with Source engine games being such a big part of gaming? I've tested Battlefield Hardline, WWE 2K15, GRID 2, Batman Arkham Origins etc and they all run PERFECT! No stutter, no fps drops, just glorious. If I run CSGO (my main game), L4D1 or 2, CS 1.6 (this is goldsource.. but still source) I get these stutters constantly. The FPS remains the same throughout, unless net_graph, MSI afterburner and FRAPS all aren't detecting the drop. It feels almost like the card is switching between power states constantly and this causes the stutter, but I've checked and the clocks/memory speeds remain high the whole time.
@ Rambo

Just tried RTSS and locked the FPS, it does make it noticeably smoother, yet the stutter still persists?

It's very strange, how have nvidia not fixed this with Source engine games being such a big part of gaming?

I've tested Battlefield Hardline, WWE 2K15, GRID 2, Batman Arkham Origins etc and they all run PERFECT!

No stutter, no fps drops, just glorious.

If I run CSGO (my main game), L4D1 or 2, CS 1.6 (this is goldsource.. but still source) I get these stutters constantly.

The FPS remains the same throughout, unless net_graph, MSI afterburner and FRAPS all aren't detecting the drop.

It feels almost like the card is switching between power states constantly and this causes the stutter, but I've checked and the clocks/memory speeds remain high the whole time.

#11
Posted 05/25/2015 01:57 AM   
[quote="kraM1t"]Thank you for the informative write up Rambo! Much appreciated I will test RTSS and lock it to 145fps and see how it goes. @ xXz21... I've come to the conclusion that the 900 series just doesn't like Source games, in L4D/CSGO/1.6/TF2 I have the same problem, stutters, low GPU utilization and just a bad playing game overall. Putting a GTX 560 or 660 into my system fixes it. All other games are unaffected and perform perfectly with the 970. Hopefully someone from nvidia see's this and releases a driver update for source games, if not.. I'm gonna have to get a 290x instead :\[/quote] yes but not only Source games. unity games too. for example rust for me run with low gpu usage. and many other unity games. i hope Nvidia fix this.
kraM1t said:Thank you for the informative write up Rambo! Much appreciated I will test RTSS and lock it to 145fps and see how it goes.

@ xXz21... I've come to the conclusion that the 900 series just doesn't like Source games, in L4D/CSGO/1.6/TF2 I have the same problem, stutters, low GPU utilization and just a bad playing game overall.

Putting a GTX 560 or 660 into my system fixes it.

All other games are unaffected and perform perfectly with the 970.

Hopefully someone from nvidia see's this and releases a driver update for source games, if not.. I'm gonna have to get a 290x instead :\


yes but not only Source games. unity games too. for example rust for me run with low gpu usage. and many other unity games.

i hope Nvidia fix this.

#12
Posted 05/25/2015 02:40 AM   
[quote="xXz21"][quote="kraM1t"]Thank you for the informative write up Rambo! Much appreciated I will test RTSS and lock it to 145fps and see how it goes. @ xXz21... I've come to the conclusion that the 900 series just doesn't like Source games, in L4D/CSGO/1.6/TF2 I have the same problem, stutters, low GPU utilization and just a bad playing game overall. Putting a GTX 560 or 660 into my system fixes it. All other games are unaffected and perform perfectly with the 970. Hopefully someone from nvidia see's this and releases a driver update for source games, if not.. I'm gonna have to get a 290x instead :\[/quote] yes but not only Source games. unity games too. for example rust for me run with low gpu usage. and many other unity games. i hope Nvidia fix this. [/quote] Ah really? damn I don't have any of those games to test for you man. Is there any way we can get in contact with nvidia? the tech support guys are generally useless and just read from a FAQ. There's clearly nothing wrong with the hardware if we can get good GPU usage in games like GTA V, Battlefield, WWE 2K15 etc. It seems like a driver/gpu bios problem. I have no idea what to do, stay with the 970 and hope nvidia releases a fix or go with AMD 290x which I know works perfect with all these games.
xXz21 said:
kraM1t said:Thank you for the informative write up Rambo! Much appreciated I will test RTSS and lock it to 145fps and see how it goes.

@ xXz21... I've come to the conclusion that the 900 series just doesn't like Source games, in L4D/CSGO/1.6/TF2 I have the same problem, stutters, low GPU utilization and just a bad playing game overall.

Putting a GTX 560 or 660 into my system fixes it.

All other games are unaffected and perform perfectly with the 970.

Hopefully someone from nvidia see's this and releases a driver update for source games, if not.. I'm gonna have to get a 290x instead :\


yes but not only Source games. unity games too. for example rust for me run with low gpu usage. and many other unity games.

i hope Nvidia fix this.


Ah really? damn I don't have any of those games to test for you man.

Is there any way we can get in contact with nvidia? the tech support guys are generally useless and just read from a FAQ.

There's clearly nothing wrong with the hardware if we can get good GPU usage in games like GTA V, Battlefield, WWE 2K15 etc.

It seems like a driver/gpu bios problem. I have no idea what to do, stay with the 970 and hope nvidia releases a fix or go with AMD 290x which I know works perfect with all these games.

#13
Posted 05/25/2015 02:54 AM   
Here is CSGO in a Deathmatch which is very CPU intensive compared to normal 5v5 where CPU actually sits around 50% http://i.imgur.com/F4sx2Up.jpg As you can see Fps_max 999 Graphics on MAX CPU isn't bottlenecking me (60-70%) Temps are fine In theory 200FPS is great, except what I can't show on the screenshot is the constant random stutter caused by it. The GPU % should be going as high as it can until either it tops out @ 100% or the CPU bottlenecks it before then. Neither of those are happening. I've run the same tests with L4D2, TF2, Portal 2 and it's the exact same results. Tested with an MSI GTX 970 G1 and an Asus GTX 970 STRIX, both exhibit exactly the same symptoms. Where as if I look at a game like WWE 2K15 with it's locked 60 frame rate by the developers.. GPU hovers around 60% during wrestling since it's reached it's 60fps target, once the camera pans to the crowd, the GPU usage goes up to 90% to maintain the 60fps target! THIS IS HOW IT SHOULD BE WITH CSGO/SOURCE GAMES BUT IT ISN'T! Sorry for the constant posting I'm just documenting as I go along in hope someone else can figure this out, hopefully someone from NVIDIA!
Here is CSGO in a Deathmatch which is very CPU intensive compared to normal 5v5 where CPU actually sits around 50%


http://i.imgur.com/F4sx2Up.jpg


As you can see

Fps_max 999
Graphics on MAX
CPU isn't bottlenecking me (60-70%)
Temps are fine

In theory 200FPS is great, except what I can't show on the screenshot is the constant random stutter caused by it. The GPU % should be going as high as it can until either it tops out @ 100% or the CPU bottlenecks it before then.
Neither of those are happening.

I've run the same tests with L4D2, TF2, Portal 2 and it's the exact same results.

Tested with an MSI GTX 970 G1 and an Asus GTX 970 STRIX, both exhibit exactly the same symptoms.

Where as if I look at a game like WWE 2K15 with it's locked 60 frame rate by the developers..

GPU hovers around 60% during wrestling since it's reached it's 60fps target, once the camera pans to the crowd, the GPU usage goes up to 90% to maintain the 60fps target! THIS IS HOW IT SHOULD BE WITH CSGO/SOURCE GAMES BUT IT ISN'T!


Sorry for the constant posting I'm just documenting as I go along in hope someone else can figure this out, hopefully someone from NVIDIA!

#14
Posted 05/25/2015 03:48 AM   
Source doesn't scale to all cores, nor is it really very heavy load on current gpu's. Your CPU is bottlenecking you. (the cores it can use) Resulting in your GPU load being minimal at whatever FPS you are getting. Resulting clocks returning to low power 3D or 2D. Reasons for stutter could be anywhere, but its most likely that the game is falling back to 2D clocks and suffocating the vram performance.
Source doesn't scale to all cores, nor is it really very heavy load on current gpu's.

Your CPU is bottlenecking you. (the cores it can use)

Resulting in your GPU load being minimal at whatever FPS you are getting.

Resulting clocks returning to low power 3D or 2D.

Reasons for stutter could be anywhere, but its most likely that the game is falling back to 2D clocks and suffocating the vram performance.



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#15
Posted 05/25/2015 04:41 AM   
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