Adaptive V-Sync What's the Point?
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Can someone explain to me the point of the so called "adaptive V-Sync" in the 600 series, because to me it looks like a total waste of time. What can it possibly do that Triple Buffering cant do much better, aside from save a little bit of VRAM which is probably not going to be an issue, and if it is, it would be NVIDIA's fault for going so stingy on memory this time around.
Can someone explain to me the point of the so called "adaptive V-Sync" in the 600 series, because to me it looks like a total waste of time. What can it possibly do that Triple Buffering cant do much better, aside from save a little bit of VRAM which is probably not going to be an issue, and if it is, it would be NVIDIA's fault for going so stingy on memory this time around.

#1
Posted 03/23/2012 05:01 AM   
The idea is to set your desired FPS. The the GPU clocks and voltage adjust to meet that target.

It will be useful for certain scenriors where you want a higher than vsync cap, or stop the GPUs from running away to super high usage where not needed.

The whole idea is that you can take advantage of the very adaptive nature of the GPU.
The idea is to set your desired FPS. The the GPU clocks and voltage adjust to meet that target.



It will be useful for certain scenriors where you want a higher than vsync cap, or stop the GPUs from running away to super high usage where not needed.



The whole idea is that you can take advantage of the very adaptive nature of the GPU.
[quote name='Oubadah' date='23 March 2012 - 06:01 AM' timestamp='1332478884' post='1386666']
Can someone explain to me the point of the so called "adaptive V-Sync" in the 600 series, because to me it looks like a total waste of time. What can it possibly do that Triple Buffering cant do much better, aside from save a little bit of VRAM which is probably not going to be an issue, and if it is, it would be NVIDIA's fault for going so stingy on memory this time around.
[/quote]


The NVidia guy at Webhallen told me that adaptive vsync should remove stuttering when the graphics suddenly becomes very demanding. Like if you run vsync like normally and the fps drops to below that there can be stuttering before it catches up again, and adaptive vsync should kick in to give it more power instantly without stuttering.
[quote name='Oubadah' date='23 March 2012 - 06:01 AM' timestamp='1332478884' post='1386666']

Can someone explain to me the point of the so called "adaptive V-Sync" in the 600 series, because to me it looks like a total waste of time. What can it possibly do that Triple Buffering cant do much better, aside from save a little bit of VRAM which is probably not going to be an issue, and if it is, it would be NVIDIA's fault for going so stingy on memory this time around.







The NVidia guy at Webhallen told me that adaptive vsync should remove stuttering when the graphics suddenly becomes very demanding. Like if you run vsync like normally and the fps drops to below that there can be stuttering before it catches up again, and adaptive vsync should kick in to give it more power instantly without stuttering.

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#3
Posted 03/23/2012 05:54 AM   
[quote name='-{RaptoR}-' date='23 March 2012 - 05:34 PM' timestamp='1332480882' post='1386679']
The idea is to set your desired FPS. The the GPU clocks and voltage adjust to meet that target.

It will be useful for certain scenriors where you want a higher than vsync cap, or stop the GPUs from running away to super high usage where not needed.

The whole idea is that you can take advantage of the very adaptive nature of the GPU.
[/quote]

Am I missing something? All I could glean from the slides is that when your framerate is above your refresh rate, V-Sync is enabled, and when when your framerate is below your refresh rate, V-Sync is disabled. How do you set your desired FPS?

What do you mean by "higher than v-sync cap"?

[quote]or stop the GPUs from running away to super high usage where not needed.[/quote]

^This is the only part that makes sense to me, but still, why not just have V-Sync always enabled with triple buffer?

[quote name='darkns' date='23 March 2012 - 05:54 PM' timestamp='1332482042' post='1386686']
The NVidia guy at Webhallen told me that adaptive vsync should remove stuttering when the graphics suddenly becomes very demanding. Like if you run vsync like normally and the fps drops to below that there can be stuttering before it catches up again, and adaptive vsync should kick in to give it more power instantly without stuttering.
[/quote]

Pretty sure that "stutter" is what Triple buffer fixes. It's not really stutter though. The framerate is just drops.
[quote name='-{RaptoR}-' date='23 March 2012 - 05:34 PM' timestamp='1332480882' post='1386679']

The idea is to set your desired FPS. The the GPU clocks and voltage adjust to meet that target.



It will be useful for certain scenriors where you want a higher than vsync cap, or stop the GPUs from running away to super high usage where not needed.



The whole idea is that you can take advantage of the very adaptive nature of the GPU.





Am I missing something? All I could glean from the slides is that when your framerate is above your refresh rate, V-Sync is enabled, and when when your framerate is below your refresh rate, V-Sync is disabled. How do you set your desired FPS?



What do you mean by "higher than v-sync cap"?



or stop the GPUs from running away to super high usage where not needed.




^This is the only part that makes sense to me, but still, why not just have V-Sync always enabled with triple buffer?



[quote name='darkns' date='23 March 2012 - 05:54 PM' timestamp='1332482042' post='1386686']

The NVidia guy at Webhallen told me that adaptive vsync should remove stuttering when the graphics suddenly becomes very demanding. Like if you run vsync like normally and the fps drops to below that there can be stuttering before it catches up again, and adaptive vsync should kick in to give it more power instantly without stuttering.





Pretty sure that "stutter" is what Triple buffer fixes. It's not really stutter though. The framerate is just drops.

#4
Posted 03/23/2012 05:56 AM   
[quote name='Oubadah' date='23 March 2012 - 05:56 PM' timestamp='1332482181' post='1386687']
Am I missing something? All I could glean from the slides is that when your framerate is above your refresh rate, V-Sync is enabled, and when when your framerate is below your refresh rate, V-Sync is disabled.
[/quote]

[url="http://www.geforce.com/whats-new/articles/introducing-the-geforce-gtx-680-gpu/"]http://www.geforce.c...ce-gtx-680-gpu/[/url]

Its more of an FPS cap - so you don't have the 50% frame rate hit of you drop below the Vsync threshold.


These two graphs explain what it achieves.

[img]http://www.geforce.com/Active/en_US/shared/images/articles/introducing-the-geforce-gtx-680-gpu/AdaptiveVSync-1.png[/img]
[img]http://www.geforce.com/Active/en_US/shared/images/articles/introducing-the-geforce-gtx-680-gpu/AdaptiveVSync-2.png[/img]
[quote name='Oubadah' date='23 March 2012 - 05:56 PM' timestamp='1332482181' post='1386687']
How do you set your desired FPS?
[/quote]

[img]http://i42.tinypic.com/5nkymc.png[/img]

[quote name='Oubadah' date='23 March 2012 - 05:56 PM' timestamp='1332482181' post='1386687']
What do you mean by "higher than v-sync cap"?
[/quote]

You can set an FPS cap to say, 100FPS on a 60Hz monitor. This is not possible with Vysnc.

--EDIT: it would seem that 100FPS is the maximum cap you can set.




[quote name='Oubadah' date='23 March 2012 - 05:56 PM' timestamp='1332482181' post='1386687']

Am I missing something? All I could glean from the slides is that when your framerate is above your refresh rate, V-Sync is enabled, and when when your framerate is below your refresh rate, V-Sync is disabled.





http://www.geforce.c...ce-gtx-680-gpu/



Its more of an FPS cap - so you don't have the 50% frame rate hit of you drop below the Vsync threshold.





These two graphs explain what it achieves.



Image

Image

[quote name='Oubadah' date='23 March 2012 - 05:56 PM' timestamp='1332482181' post='1386687']

How do you set your desired FPS?





Image



[quote name='Oubadah' date='23 March 2012 - 05:56 PM' timestamp='1332482181' post='1386687']

What do you mean by "higher than v-sync cap"?





You can set an FPS cap to say, 100FPS on a 60Hz monitor. This is not possible with Vysnc.



--EDIT: it would seem that 100FPS is the maximum cap you can set.








Re. the first graph: I'll ask again, why not just use Triple Buffer? those troughs/"stutters" are a non issue with Triple Buffer.

[quote]
You can set an FPS cap to say, 100FPS on a 60Hz monitor. This is not possible with Vysnc[/quote]

I know about Precision/Afterburner/RTSS etc. frame limiters. But what's the relevance?

Adaptive V-Sync still caps your framerate just the same way normal V-Sync does. The only time Adaptive V-Sync isn't capping your framerate to your refresh, is when your framerate is [i]already[/i] below your refresh. So what has 100fps frame cap got to do with anything?
Re. the first graph: I'll ask again, why not just use Triple Buffer? those troughs/"stutters" are a non issue with Triple Buffer.





You can set an FPS cap to say, 100FPS on a 60Hz monitor. This is not possible with Vysnc




I know about Precision/Afterburner/RTSS etc. frame limiters. But what's the relevance?



Adaptive V-Sync still caps your framerate just the same way normal V-Sync does. The only time Adaptive V-Sync isn't capping your framerate to your refresh, is when your framerate is already below your refresh. So what has 100fps frame cap got to do with anything?

#6
Posted 03/23/2012 06:52 AM   
I'm just trying to point out what you can do with what they introduced. Don't use it if you don't want to.
[quote name='Oubadah' date='23 March 2012 - 02:52 AM' timestamp='1332485541' post='1386696']Re. the first graph: I'll ask again, why not just use Triple Buffer? those troughs/"stutters" are a non issue with Triple Buffer...[/quote]
Triple buffering is readily available in OpenGL, but must be forced in DirectX, so you cannot just check a box in the NVCPL.

Triple buffering is NOT an option with 2-Way SLI.

There's plenty of relevance if you actually know where to look for it...
[quote name='Oubadah' date='23 March 2012 - 02:52 AM' timestamp='1332485541' post='1386696']Re. the first graph: I'll ask again, why not just use Triple Buffer? those troughs/"stutters" are a non issue with Triple Buffer...

Triple buffering is readily available in OpenGL, but must be forced in DirectX, so you cannot just check a box in the NVCPL.



Triple buffering is NOT an option with 2-Way SLI.



There's plenty of relevance if you actually know where to look for it...

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#8
Posted 03/23/2012 07:14 AM   
The use of triple buffering with V-sync can introduce some input lag which wouldn't happen with Adaptive V-sync. The only side effect with Adaptive V-sync is that if the framerate drops below, say, 60 fps on a 60 Hz display then you may see screen tearing. Personally, I find screen tearing more annoying than anything else so I'd always use triple buffering + V-sync. With Adaptive V-sync, you're just trading possible input lag for a little screen tearing. I guess it's nice to have the choice as V-sync without triple buffering can lead to huge framerate drops due to the way double buffering works, i.e. if a game dips below 60 fps on a 60 Hz display then it will drop right down to 30 fps temporarily. With triple buffering that doesn't happen because an extra frame is always held in reserve while is one is being displayed and another rendered.
The use of triple buffering with V-sync can introduce some input lag which wouldn't happen with Adaptive V-sync. The only side effect with Adaptive V-sync is that if the framerate drops below, say, 60 fps on a 60 Hz display then you may see screen tearing. Personally, I find screen tearing more annoying than anything else so I'd always use triple buffering + V-sync. With Adaptive V-sync, you're just trading possible input lag for a little screen tearing. I guess it's nice to have the choice as V-sync without triple buffering can lead to huge framerate drops due to the way double buffering works, i.e. if a game dips below 60 fps on a 60 Hz display then it will drop right down to 30 fps temporarily. With triple buffering that doesn't happen because an extra frame is always held in reserve while is one is being displayed and another rendered.

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#9
Posted 03/23/2012 08:43 AM   
By the way, given how third-party tools like D3DOverrider handle triple buffering for Direct3D games just fine, why have NVIDIA and AMD never bothered to support it in their drivers?
By the way, given how third-party tools like D3DOverrider handle triple buffering for Direct3D games just fine, why have NVIDIA and AMD never bothered to support it in their drivers?

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#10
Posted 03/23/2012 08:48 AM   
This is what I'd really like to know:

V-Sync causes Input Lag, especially at lower refresh rates such as 60Hz. This Adaptive V-Sync appears so just be normal V-Sync, but automated to that it is enabled when the framerate is above the refresh rate, and disabled when the framerate is below the refresh rate. Does this mean that, while you are playing, there are going to be fluctuations in the amount of input lag you have as V-Sync is being automatically enabled and disabled?

If that is the case, then I believe that this is an ill-conceived feature. Standard V-Sync lag is one matter; It's undesirable, but at least it's a consistent, predictable input delay. But having V-Sync (and it's associated input lag) switching on and off 'on-the-fly' is another matter altogether. It would be an absolute nightmare in first person games, akin to mouse acceleration.
This is what I'd really like to know:



V-Sync causes Input Lag, especially at lower refresh rates such as 60Hz. This Adaptive V-Sync appears so just be normal V-Sync, but automated to that it is enabled when the framerate is above the refresh rate, and disabled when the framerate is below the refresh rate. Does this mean that, while you are playing, there are going to be fluctuations in the amount of input lag you have as V-Sync is being automatically enabled and disabled?



If that is the case, then I believe that this is an ill-conceived feature. Standard V-Sync lag is one matter; It's undesirable, but at least it's a consistent, predictable input delay. But having V-Sync (and it's associated input lag) switching on and off 'on-the-fly' is another matter altogether. It would be an absolute nightmare in first person games, akin to mouse acceleration.

#11
Posted 03/23/2012 09:00 AM   
Check out this EVGA video if you have not done so yet. It has a section on what you ask.

[url="http://www.evga.com/products/moreInfo.asp?pn=02G-P4-2680-KR&family=GeForce%20600%20Series%20Family&sw="]EVGA 680 video[/url]

Note: go to the end of this video and they provide a link to the specific video on gpu boost and they talk about Vsync in both videos. For whatever reason, it won't let me link the specific video.
Check out this EVGA video if you have not done so yet. It has a section on what you ask.



EVGA 680 video



Note: go to the end of this video and they provide a link to the specific video on gpu boost and they talk about Vsync in both videos. For whatever reason, it won't let me link the specific video.

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#12
Posted 03/24/2012 11:14 PM   
[quote name='Methodical' date='25 March 2012 - 11:14 AM' timestamp='1332630841' post='1387485']
Check out this EVGA video if you have not done so yet. It has a section on what you ask.

[url="http://www.evga.com/products/moreInfo.asp?pn=02G-P4-2680-KR&family=GeForce%20600%20Series%20Family&sw="]EVGA 680 video[/url]

Note: go to the end of this video and they provide a link to the specific video on gpu boost and they talk about Vsync in both videos. For whatever reason, it won't let me link the specific video.
[/quote]

I watched those videos; The first video just shows the same old slides, and doesn't explain any further. The second video didn't even seem to mention V-Sync.

Now I see what Raptor was talking about with setting a "desired FPS", but that's the so-called 'Frame Rate Target' feature, and has absolutely nothing to do with Adaptive V-Sync. Frame Rate Target is dynamic underclocking for the purpose of saving energy. Not sure why he even mentioned that...
[quote name='Methodical' date='25 March 2012 - 11:14 AM' timestamp='1332630841' post='1387485']

Check out this EVGA video if you have not done so yet. It has a section on what you ask.



EVGA 680 video



Note: go to the end of this video and they provide a link to the specific video on gpu boost and they talk about Vsync in both videos. For whatever reason, it won't let me link the specific video.





I watched those videos; The first video just shows the same old slides, and doesn't explain any further. The second video didn't even seem to mention V-Sync.



Now I see what Raptor was talking about with setting a "desired FPS", but that's the so-called 'Frame Rate Target' feature, and has absolutely nothing to do with Adaptive V-Sync. Frame Rate Target is dynamic underclocking for the purpose of saving energy. Not sure why he even mentioned that...

#13
Posted 03/25/2012 02:22 AM   
In the video he explains how Adaptive V snyc works (between 4 to 4.5 minute mark). He states that it it turns off vsync when your frame rate is below the refresh rate, so that the frame rate is not cut in 1/2 of the refresh rate (i.e. 30, 15 etc) and therefore eliminating tearing and stuttering (revisit the video and watch the 4 minute mark). In other words, you get the actual frames that's below the refresh rate (i.e. 56 etc.) as the way I understand him. To me it would seem that adaptive vsync and target frame rate would work hand in hand. If you watch the video closely, you will see the FPS drop below his targeted fps (30-29) at which time I would think adaptive vsync would kick in. For more details, the best thing to do is call them directly as they should be able to explain better than us here on the boards, but it seems pretty clear that vysnc is just an on/off switch for vsync to maintain fps and eliminate tearing and stutter.


[quote name='Oubadah' date='24 March 2012 - 09:22 PM' timestamp='1332642144' post='1387528']
I watched those videos; The first video just shows the same old slides, and doesn't explain any further. The second video didn't even seem to mention V-Sync.

Now I see what Raptor was talking about with setting a "desired FPS", but that's the so-called 'Frame Rate Target' feature, and has absolutely nothing to do with Adaptive V-Sync. Frame Rate Target is dynamic underclocking for the purpose of saving energy. Not sure why he even mentioned that...
[/quote]
In the video he explains how Adaptive V snyc works (between 4 to 4.5 minute mark). He states that it it turns off vsync when your frame rate is below the refresh rate, so that the frame rate is not cut in 1/2 of the refresh rate (i.e. 30, 15 etc) and therefore eliminating tearing and stuttering (revisit the video and watch the 4 minute mark). In other words, you get the actual frames that's below the refresh rate (i.e. 56 etc.) as the way I understand him. To me it would seem that adaptive vsync and target frame rate would work hand in hand. If you watch the video closely, you will see the FPS drop below his targeted fps (30-29) at which time I would think adaptive vsync would kick in. For more details, the best thing to do is call them directly as they should be able to explain better than us here on the boards, but it seems pretty clear that vysnc is just an on/off switch for vsync to maintain fps and eliminate tearing and stutter.





[quote name='Oubadah' date='24 March 2012 - 09:22 PM' timestamp='1332642144' post='1387528']

I watched those videos; The first video just shows the same old slides, and doesn't explain any further. The second video didn't even seem to mention V-Sync.



Now I see what Raptor was talking about with setting a "desired FPS", but that's the so-called 'Frame Rate Target' feature, and has absolutely nothing to do with Adaptive V-Sync. Frame Rate Target is dynamic underclocking for the purpose of saving energy. Not sure why he even mentioned that...

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#14
Posted 03/25/2012 08:27 AM   
I saw that part, but it's not telling me anything I didn't already know. Adaptive V-Sync is NOT "eliminating" tearing - there will still be tearing every time the frame rate goes below the refresh rate. That's why Triple Buffer + normal V-Sync is superior; there is NEVER any tearing at all, and no 'stutter' either.

In short:
V-Sync + Triple Buffer = No 'stutter', NO tearing.
Adaptive V-Sync = No 'stutter', intermittent tearing.

And none of you seem to be grasping my question about fluctuating input lag. Here, I've illustrated what I *think* is going to be happening with Adaptive V-Sync on this NVIDIA slide:

[IMG]http://i.imgur.com/ptdBA.png[/IMG]
(Disclaimer: I can't remember exactly how much lag you get with V-Sync at 60Hz, from memory it's around 16ms, so that's the figure I've used.)

Do you understand what I'm saying? Fluctuating input lag would be like fluctuating mouse sensitivity (aka. mouse acceleration). This would absolutely SUCK in any first person game.
I saw that part, but it's not telling me anything I didn't already know. Adaptive V-Sync is NOT "eliminating" tearing - there will still be tearing every time the frame rate goes below the refresh rate. That's why Triple Buffer + normal V-Sync is superior; there is NEVER any tearing at all, and no 'stutter' either.



In short:

V-Sync + Triple Buffer = No 'stutter', NO tearing.

Adaptive V-Sync = No 'stutter', intermittent tearing.



And none of you seem to be grasping my question about fluctuating input lag. Here, I've illustrated what I *think* is going to be happening with Adaptive V-Sync on this NVIDIA slide:



Image

(Disclaimer: I can't remember exactly how much lag you get with V-Sync at 60Hz, from memory it's around 16ms, so that's the figure I've used.)



Do you understand what I'm saying? Fluctuating input lag would be like fluctuating mouse sensitivity (aka. mouse acceleration). This would absolutely SUCK in any first person game.

#15
Posted 03/25/2012 10:23 AM   
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