Why use a 3D monitor? Can I pull off 3D gaming on my non-3D monitor
Can someone please explain to me what it is that a 3D-enabled monitor has that other monitors don't? What I'm really wondering is this: If I were to buy an IR emitter and 3D glasses, but not a 3D monitor, what would happen? Would it fail altogether? Or would I just get poor performance?

I have not been able to find any information about what makes a 3D monitor or TV special. Any links to more detailed information would be greatly appreciated, no matter how technical it may be.

Thanks in advance.
Can someone please explain to me what it is that a 3D-enabled monitor has that other monitors don't? What I'm really wondering is this: If I were to buy an IR emitter and 3D glasses, but not a 3D monitor, what would happen? Would it fail altogether? Or would I just get poor performance?



I have not been able to find any information about what makes a 3D monitor or TV special. Any links to more detailed information would be greatly appreciated, no matter how technical it may be.



Thanks in advance.

#1
Posted 02/15/2012 03:34 PM   
[quote name='nispio' date='15 February 2012 - 10:34 AM' timestamp='1329320090' post='1369802']
Can someone please explain to me what it is that a 3D-enabled monitor has that other monitors don't? What I'm really wondering is this: If I were to buy an IR emitter and 3D glasses, but not a 3D monitor, what would happen? Would it fail altogether? Or would I just get poor performance?

I have not been able to find any information about what makes a 3D monitor or TV special. Any links to more detailed information would be greatly appreciated, no matter how technical it may be.

Thanks in advance.
[/quote]
Hi, nothing would happen.

Nvidia's drivers determine what displays enable their auto-stereo driver and they made the decision long ago that ~80-85Hz was the bare minimum for stereoscopic 3D. Theoretically 60Hz monitors displaying 30 frames each could work, but the image could very well be nausea-inducing which is not the effect Nvidia or anyone else wants to put out there. 3DTVs can get away with 24Hz in 3D because they use interpolation/image processing to double/triple/quadruple frame rates, but its still a non-optimal solution for games.
[quote name='nispio' date='15 February 2012 - 10:34 AM' timestamp='1329320090' post='1369802']

Can someone please explain to me what it is that a 3D-enabled monitor has that other monitors don't? What I'm really wondering is this: If I were to buy an IR emitter and 3D glasses, but not a 3D monitor, what would happen? Would it fail altogether? Or would I just get poor performance?



I have not been able to find any information about what makes a 3D monitor or TV special. Any links to more detailed information would be greatly appreciated, no matter how technical it may be.



Thanks in advance.



Hi, nothing would happen.



Nvidia's drivers determine what displays enable their auto-stereo driver and they made the decision long ago that ~80-85Hz was the bare minimum for stereoscopic 3D. Theoretically 60Hz monitors displaying 30 frames each could work, but the image could very well be nausea-inducing which is not the effect Nvidia or anyone else wants to put out there. 3DTVs can get away with 24Hz in 3D because they use interpolation/image processing to double/triple/quadruple frame rates, but its still a non-optimal solution for games.

-=HeliX=- Mod 3DV Game Fixes
My 3D Vision Games List Ratings

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#2
Posted 02/15/2012 04:12 PM   
[quote name='chiz' date='15 February 2012 - 09:12 AM' timestamp='1329322376' post='1369815']
Nvidia's drivers determine what displays enable their auto-stereo driver and they made the decision long ago that ~80-85Hz was the bare minimum for stereoscopic 3D...
[/quote]

Thanks for the quick response! So does that mean that there may be 120Hz monitors out there that are not touted as "3D-ready" but that could still get the job done? For example, my (non-3D) TV has a 120Hz refresh rate. Could I make that work? Or do the drivers have some sort of "whitelist" of acceptable displays?
[quote name='chiz' date='15 February 2012 - 09:12 AM' timestamp='1329322376' post='1369815']

Nvidia's drivers determine what displays enable their auto-stereo driver and they made the decision long ago that ~80-85Hz was the bare minimum for stereoscopic 3D...





Thanks for the quick response! So does that mean that there may be 120Hz monitors out there that are not touted as "3D-ready" but that could still get the job done? For example, my (non-3D) TV has a 120Hz refresh rate. Could I make that work? Or do the drivers have some sort of "whitelist" of acceptable displays?

#3
Posted 02/15/2012 04:45 PM   
Go to Nvidia's site and look at the list of compatible monitors and TVs. Base your purchases off that. Buy a compatible TV or monitor, a kit, and game on.

I recently bought a new 3DTV. But got one based on nvidia's compatibility list. No issues with 3dtv play. Shop smart... shop S-mart!!
Go to Nvidia's site and look at the list of compatible monitors and TVs. Base your purchases off that. Buy a compatible TV or monitor, a kit, and game on.



I recently bought a new 3DTV. But got one based on nvidia's compatibility list. No issues with 3dtv play. Shop smart... shop S-mart!!

AsRock X58 Extreme6 mobo
Intel Core-i7 950 @ 4ghz
6gb Corsair Dominator DDR3 2000
DUAL EVGA Geforce GTX 570's SLI
Corsair TX 950w PSU
NZXT Phantom Red/Black Case
3d Vision 1 w/ Samsung 2233rz Monitor
3d Vision 2 w/ ASUS VG278HE Monitor

#4
Posted 02/15/2012 05:03 PM   
[quote name='AcidBong' date='15 February 2012 - 12:03 PM' timestamp='1329325384' post='1369838']
Go to Nvidia's site and look at the list of compatible monitors and TVs. Base your purchases off that. Buy a compatible TV or monitor, a kit, and game on.

I recently bought a new 3DTV. But got one based on nvidia's compatibility list. No issues with 3dtv play. Shop smart... shop S-mart!!
[/quote]
lol did Ash himself sell you the tv at S-mart ? :P
[quote name='AcidBong' date='15 February 2012 - 12:03 PM' timestamp='1329325384' post='1369838']

Go to Nvidia's site and look at the list of compatible monitors and TVs. Base your purchases off that. Buy a compatible TV or monitor, a kit, and game on.



I recently bought a new 3DTV. But got one based on nvidia's compatibility list. No issues with 3dtv play. Shop smart... shop S-mart!!



lol did Ash himself sell you the tv at S-mart ? :P

Antec Dark Fleet DF-85 Case

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i7-2600k @ 4.4 GHz

Corsair H60 in Push/Pull

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2 Zotac GTX 580s in SLI

Crucial M4 128GB SSD for OS

Western Digital Caviar Black 500GB 7200 RPM HDD

PSU Corsair HX 1050W

Windows 7 64-Bit Home Premium

Monitor Dell UltraSharp U2410 (1920x1200)

#5
Posted 02/15/2012 05:10 PM   
[quote name='AcidBong' date='15 February 2012 - 10:03 AM' timestamp='1329325384' post='1369838']
Go to Nvidia's site and look at the list of compatible monitors and TVs. Base your purchases off that. Buy a compatible TV or monitor, a kit, and game on.[/quote]

Thanks, but I'm more interested in saving money than anything else. I have a 120Hz TV, and I could probably get my hands on a 120Hz monitor on the cheap. If either of those would work, I would prefer it. I'm not a real serious gamer. In fact, the only games I own right now are the Elder Scrolls series. My interest in 3D is more out of curiosity than out of any intention to become a hardcore 3D gamer.
[quote name='AcidBong' date='15 February 2012 - 10:03 AM' timestamp='1329325384' post='1369838']

Go to Nvidia's site and look at the list of compatible monitors and TVs. Base your purchases off that. Buy a compatible TV or monitor, a kit, and game on.



Thanks, but I'm more interested in saving money than anything else. I have a 120Hz TV, and I could probably get my hands on a 120Hz monitor on the cheap. If either of those would work, I would prefer it. I'm not a real serious gamer. In fact, the only games I own right now are the Elder Scrolls series. My interest in 3D is more out of curiosity than out of any intention to become a hardcore 3D gamer.

#6
Posted 02/15/2012 05:11 PM   
[quote name='nispio' date='15 February 2012 - 11:45 AM' timestamp='1329324359' post='1369829']
Thanks for the quick response! So does that mean that there may be 120Hz monitors out there that are not touted as "3D-ready" but that could still get the job done? For example, my (non-3D) TV has a 120Hz refresh rate. Could I make that work? Or do the drivers have some sort of "whitelist" of acceptable displays?
[/quote]
Unfortunately in the HDTV space, none of them are capable of accepting signals greater than 60Hz right now over HDMI, so all of those refresh rates are just forms of interpolation to get 120Hz/180Hz/240Hz output from a 60Hz signal.

Unless your HDTV is specifically marketed as a "3DTV" it simply doesn't have the necessary hardware to display stereoscopic 3D images within the supported formats. HDMI support for 3D came at a later time and had to conform around the 60Hz signal limitations of HDMI 1.3/1.4. Instead of sending alternating frames for each eye 120x per second, they send a single frame with framepacked images for both eyes, then the HDTV is tasked with splitting that image, processing it, and displaying it at 120x per second while coordinating with its 3D glasses (60 per eye).

So yes there is a whitelist of displays from even the displays that advertise themselves as 3DTVs.

and lol @ the army of darkness ref. :)
[quote name='nispio' date='15 February 2012 - 11:45 AM' timestamp='1329324359' post='1369829']

Thanks for the quick response! So does that mean that there may be 120Hz monitors out there that are not touted as "3D-ready" but that could still get the job done? For example, my (non-3D) TV has a 120Hz refresh rate. Could I make that work? Or do the drivers have some sort of "whitelist" of acceptable displays?



Unfortunately in the HDTV space, none of them are capable of accepting signals greater than 60Hz right now over HDMI, so all of those refresh rates are just forms of interpolation to get 120Hz/180Hz/240Hz output from a 60Hz signal.



Unless your HDTV is specifically marketed as a "3DTV" it simply doesn't have the necessary hardware to display stereoscopic 3D images within the supported formats. HDMI support for 3D came at a later time and had to conform around the 60Hz signal limitations of HDMI 1.3/1.4. Instead of sending alternating frames for each eye 120x per second, they send a single frame with framepacked images for both eyes, then the HDTV is tasked with splitting that image, processing it, and displaying it at 120x per second while coordinating with its 3D glasses (60 per eye).



So yes there is a whitelist of displays from even the displays that advertise themselves as 3DTVs.



and lol @ the army of darkness ref. :)

-=HeliX=- Mod 3DV Game Fixes
My 3D Vision Games List Ratings

Intel Core i7 920 D0 @4.0GHz 1.29V | EVGA X58 Classified 760 | Win7 x64 Ultimate | Antec 620 LC
Galaxy GeForce GTX 670 GC SLI | Asus VG278H 120Hz LCD + 3D Vision 2 | 12GB Samsung DDR3 1600 35nm
Intel X25-M G2 160GB SSD | WD Black 3x1.5TB RAID 0 | Kingston HyperX 2x128GB SSD RAID 0
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#7
Posted 02/15/2012 05:18 PM   
You need one of the monitors/TV's on the list, if it's not on the list assume it doesn't work, NVidia whitelists displays in the driver.

There is a lot of confusing overlapping terminology Your TV is not actually 120Hz, it refreshes at 120Hz but it will not take a 120Hz input signal (no currently available TV will) which 3DVision requires.
If it's a 3D TV you can use the HDMI 1.4 frame packing modes by buying 3D TV Play.
If the TV supports checkerboard modes there is a hack floating around that allows you to use 3D Vision with that, but I do not know what the status of the hack is since NVidia removed Generic CRT functionality.

NVidia seems to be actively closing loop holes people have used to run with the 2 or 3 none certified devices, and because they add support for games as they ship to the drivers, you will want to be able to run the latest drivers.
You need one of the monitors/TV's on the list, if it's not on the list assume it doesn't work, NVidia whitelists displays in the driver.



There is a lot of confusing overlapping terminology Your TV is not actually 120Hz, it refreshes at 120Hz but it will not take a 120Hz input signal (no currently available TV will) which 3DVision requires.

If it's a 3D TV you can use the HDMI 1.4 frame packing modes by buying 3D TV Play.

If the TV supports checkerboard modes there is a hack floating around that allows you to use 3D Vision with that, but I do not know what the status of the hack is since NVidia removed Generic CRT functionality.



NVidia seems to be actively closing loop holes people have used to run with the 2 or 3 none certified devices, and because they add support for games as they ship to the drivers, you will want to be able to run the latest drivers.
#8
Posted 02/15/2012 05:19 PM   
[quote name='chiz' date='15 February 2012 - 10:18 AM' timestamp='1329326291' post='1369846']
Instead of sending alternating frames for each eye 120x per second, they send a single frame with framepacked images for both eyes, then the HDTV is tasked with splitting that image, processing it, and displaying it at 120x per second while coordinating with its 3D glasses (60 per eye).
[/quote]

[quote name='ERP' date='15 February 2012 - 10:19 AM' timestamp='1329326359' post='1369847']
You need one of the monitors/TV's on the list, if it's not on the list assume it doesn't work, NVidia whitelists displays in the driver.
[/quote]

This is exactly the information that I was after. What an awesome community! I did not expect to see such detailed responses so fast. Again, thank you!
[quote name='chiz' date='15 February 2012 - 10:18 AM' timestamp='1329326291' post='1369846']

Instead of sending alternating frames for each eye 120x per second, they send a single frame with framepacked images for both eyes, then the HDTV is tasked with splitting that image, processing it, and displaying it at 120x per second while coordinating with its 3D glasses (60 per eye).





[quote name='ERP' date='15 February 2012 - 10:19 AM' timestamp='1329326359' post='1369847']

You need one of the monitors/TV's on the list, if it's not on the list assume it doesn't work, NVidia whitelists displays in the driver.





This is exactly the information that I was after. What an awesome community! I did not expect to see such detailed responses so fast. Again, thank you!

#9
Posted 02/15/2012 05:31 PM   
If you want to play 3D on a 2D monitor, you can do it. Just not with high quality solutions like Nvidia 3D Vision glasses. You can use cheap anaglyph glasses (with the red/blue lenses). The quality is only a fraction of what you get with a real solution, but its very cheap and works with the hardware you already have. If you want to buy glasses you should get the Pro-Ana anglyph glasses for around $10. If you want *really* cheap I will send you a pair of paper glasses FOR FREE! Just PM me with your full mailing address and I can send the glasses (this offer is good for anyone that wants, I ship worldwide).
If you want to play 3D on a 2D monitor, you can do it. Just not with high quality solutions like Nvidia 3D Vision glasses. You can use cheap anaglyph glasses (with the red/blue lenses). The quality is only a fraction of what you get with a real solution, but its very cheap and works with the hardware you already have. If you want to buy glasses you should get the Pro-Ana anglyph glasses for around $10. If you want *really* cheap I will send you a pair of paper glasses FOR FREE! Just PM me with your full mailing address and I can send the glasses (this offer is good for anyone that wants, I ship worldwide).
#10
Posted 02/16/2012 03:05 AM   
Cybereality, you still liking the HMD? I thought you could use it to exercise with, you know, crouching when you crouched, jumping up when you jump, running in place. /biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':biggrin:' /> Have you tried that?
Cybereality, you still liking the HMD? I thought you could use it to exercise with, you know, crouching when you crouched, jumping up when you jump, running in place. /biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':biggrin:' /> Have you tried that?

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.
.
Post here for support for 3D in BF4, BF devs will see it

#11
Posted 02/16/2012 03:49 AM   
[quote name='cybereality' date='15 February 2012 - 08:05 PM' timestamp='1329361506' post='1370076']
If you want to play 3D on a 2D monitor, you can do it. Just not with high quality solutions like Nvidia 3D Vision glasses. You can use cheap anaglyph glasses (with the red/blue lenses). The quality is only a fraction of what you get with a real solution, but its very cheap and works with the hardware you already have. If you want to buy glasses you should get the Pro-Ana anglyph glasses for around $10. If you want *really* cheap I will send you a pair of paper glasses FOR FREE! Just PM me with your full mailing address and I can send the glasses (this offer is good for anyone that wants, I ship worldwide).
[/quote]

Thanks for the offer. I actually just ordered some anaglyph glasses this morning, or I might have taken you up on it. Since I found out that my video card also supports anaglyphic 3D, I thought that I would give a shot. I'm not sure if it will satisfy my curiosity, or if it will only whet my appetite for higher quality 3D gaming.

Since we're on the subject (even though I might be diverging a bit from the original topic) I'm curious how the anaglyphic 3D stacks up against the active-lens style 3D. Obviously the color will never be as good on anaglyphic. But if you were to compare monochrome anaglyphic to monochrome active-lens 3D, how does the quality of the 3D vision itself compare?
[quote name='cybereality' date='15 February 2012 - 08:05 PM' timestamp='1329361506' post='1370076']

If you want to play 3D on a 2D monitor, you can do it. Just not with high quality solutions like Nvidia 3D Vision glasses. You can use cheap anaglyph glasses (with the red/blue lenses). The quality is only a fraction of what you get with a real solution, but its very cheap and works with the hardware you already have. If you want to buy glasses you should get the Pro-Ana anglyph glasses for around $10. If you want *really* cheap I will send you a pair of paper glasses FOR FREE! Just PM me with your full mailing address and I can send the glasses (this offer is good for anyone that wants, I ship worldwide).





Thanks for the offer. I actually just ordered some anaglyph glasses this morning, or I might have taken you up on it. Since I found out that my video card also supports anaglyphic 3D, I thought that I would give a shot. I'm not sure if it will satisfy my curiosity, or if it will only whet my appetite for higher quality 3D gaming.



Since we're on the subject (even though I might be diverging a bit from the original topic) I'm curious how the anaglyphic 3D stacks up against the active-lens style 3D. Obviously the color will never be as good on anaglyphic. But if you were to compare monochrome anaglyphic to monochrome active-lens 3D, how does the quality of the 3D vision itself compare?

#12
Posted 02/16/2012 05:16 AM   
You will have significantly more crosstalk with analygraph, making the image far less clear and making your eyes have to work harder to put together the 3D image. Plus, the loss of colour really isn't acceptable or worth it by any stretch.

Basically, the analygraph '3D Vision Discover' mode is purely to show what 3D is 'like' (hence using the word 'Discover'), NOT for extended playing. Do not assume this will be even close to what a proper 3D Vision setup is like, simply use it as a guide to what 3D in games is like.

If you want to game in 3D, there's really no way around getting a monitor or TV on Nvidia's list.

3D gaming on a 3D monitor:
- 1080p resolution
- 60fps per eye
- Even when gaming in 2D, you have have 120fps framerate for ridiculously smooth play
- Uses 3D Vision glasses

3D gaming on a 3DTV:
- 720p resolution
- 60fps per eye
- Uses TV's own supplied glasses, which is why it wouldn't work for your 120hz non-3D TV.

In summary, sadly there really isn't any way to 3D game on the cheap or trick older equipment (Non-3DTVs, even 120hz ones) not designed for it into working with any decent degree of success.
You will have significantly more crosstalk with analygraph, making the image far less clear and making your eyes have to work harder to put together the 3D image. Plus, the loss of colour really isn't acceptable or worth it by any stretch.



Basically, the analygraph '3D Vision Discover' mode is purely to show what 3D is 'like' (hence using the word 'Discover'), NOT for extended playing. Do not assume this will be even close to what a proper 3D Vision setup is like, simply use it as a guide to what 3D in games is like.



If you want to game in 3D, there's really no way around getting a monitor or TV on Nvidia's list.



3D gaming on a 3D monitor:

- 1080p resolution

- 60fps per eye

- Even when gaming in 2D, you have have 120fps framerate for ridiculously smooth play

- Uses 3D Vision glasses



3D gaming on a 3DTV:

- 720p resolution

- 60fps per eye

- Uses TV's own supplied glasses, which is why it wouldn't work for your 120hz non-3D TV.



In summary, sadly there really isn't any way to 3D game on the cheap or trick older equipment (Non-3DTVs, even 120hz ones) not designed for it into working with any decent degree of success.

#13
Posted 02/16/2012 10:17 AM   
If you are desperate, you could use a CRT computer monitor and an older (not sure what version number) driver release to get 3D. Recently nvidia removed support for CRT monitors which is why you would have to use an older version.
Look around for threads about CRT support to read more.
If you are desperate, you could use a CRT computer monitor and an older (not sure what version number) driver release to get 3D. Recently nvidia removed support for CRT monitors which is why you would have to use an older version.

Look around for threads about CRT support to read more.

#14
Posted 02/16/2012 06:40 PM   
[quote name='nispio' date='15 February 2012 - 11:16 PM' timestamp='1329369386' post='1370118']
I'm not sure if it will satisfy my curiosity, or if it will only whet my appetite for higher quality 3D gaming.[/quote]

Thats very similar to what I was thinking about 2 years ago when I was "discovering" 3d gaming on pc. Realized that anaglyph 3d was built into nvidia. Got one of my kids' barbie 3d paper glasses and turned on Oblivion.... omg, to me the depth and 3d were very clear, though the colors (obviously) were whacked. I couldn't believe what I'd been missing. Ordered my kit and monitor that night. Whet my appetite for sure. /biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':biggrin:' />
[quote name='nispio' date='15 February 2012 - 11:16 PM' timestamp='1329369386' post='1370118']

I'm not sure if it will satisfy my curiosity, or if it will only whet my appetite for higher quality 3D gaming.



Thats very similar to what I was thinking about 2 years ago when I was "discovering" 3d gaming on pc. Realized that anaglyph 3d was built into nvidia. Got one of my kids' barbie 3d paper glasses and turned on Oblivion.... omg, to me the depth and 3d were very clear, though the colors (obviously) were whacked. I couldn't believe what I'd been missing. Ordered my kit and monitor that night. Whet my appetite for sure. /biggrin.gif' class='bbc_emoticon' alt=':biggrin:' />

AsRock X58 Extreme6 mobo
Intel Core-i7 950 @ 4ghz
6gb Corsair Dominator DDR3 2000
DUAL EVGA Geforce GTX 570's SLI
Corsair TX 950w PSU
NZXT Phantom Red/Black Case
3d Vision 1 w/ Samsung 2233rz Monitor
3d Vision 2 w/ ASUS VG278HE Monitor

#15
Posted 02/17/2012 02:12 AM   
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