FPS limiter included in the driver petition
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Hi, after testing a useful utility called Dxtory, which have the ability to cap the gameplay fps to the value you want, I don't understand why this feature is not included in the driver.
It makes a world of diference, in games that can't be run at framerate equal or above 60. It can turn a stutter fest game in smooth gameplay.
I tested this utility on some problematic games that have lots of stutter despite the framerate being above 40, like Dragon Age 2 or The Witcher 2 and the gameplay is so much better because there's no fps fluctuation and no stutter.
We now have the option to use vsync to limit the fps to refresh rate, but unless your hardware is able to maintain a constant 60 fps, you will suffer from frame dips.
Another advantage of this function is the ability to save power and produce less heat, because the hardware is not wasting energy.
With my system in particular I use SLI and 2D Surround and as you all know sli can produce microsttuter and this solution fix it.
I know there's more people who like this kinda of option in the driver, and I ask If you are one of them, please sign this petition.

Thank you.
Hi, after testing a useful utility called Dxtory, which have the ability to cap the gameplay fps to the value you want, I don't understand why this feature is not included in the driver.

It makes a world of diference, in games that can't be run at framerate equal or above 60. It can turn a stutter fest game in smooth gameplay.

I tested this utility on some problematic games that have lots of stutter despite the framerate being above 40, like Dragon Age 2 or The Witcher 2 and the gameplay is so much better because there's no fps fluctuation and no stutter.

We now have the option to use vsync to limit the fps to refresh rate, but unless your hardware is able to maintain a constant 60 fps, you will suffer from frame dips.

Another advantage of this function is the ability to save power and produce less heat, because the hardware is not wasting energy.

With my system in particular I use SLI and 2D Surround and as you all know sli can produce microsttuter and this solution fix it.

I know there's more people who like this kinda of option in the driver, and I ask If you are one of them, please sign this petition.



Thank you.

Intel Core i7 2600k @ 4.5 + ASUS P8P67 Evo + 2 x 4GB GSKILL RIPJAWS-X + ASUS GTX580 SLI + DELL U2711

#1
Posted 05/29/2011 09:53 PM   
Perhaps you could explain how a DX/OpenGL movie capture app can limit frame rates on a game?...
Perhaps you could explain how a DX/OpenGL movie capture app can limit frame rates on a game?...

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#2
Posted 05/29/2011 11:09 PM   
[quote name='jaafaman' date='30 May 2011 - 12:09 AM' timestamp='1306710560' post='1244099']
Perhaps you could explain how a DX/OpenGL movie capture app can limit frame rates on a game?...
[/quote]

It have that function. Give it a go, but don't use msi afterburner because the two aren't compatible, but you could see the fps through Dxtory.
There's another utility called fps limiter that do the same thing, but unfortunately don't support dx10/dx11.
[quote name='jaafaman' date='30 May 2011 - 12:09 AM' timestamp='1306710560' post='1244099']

Perhaps you could explain how a DX/OpenGL movie capture app can limit frame rates on a game?...





It have that function. Give it a go, but don't use msi afterburner because the two aren't compatible, but you could see the fps through Dxtory.

There's another utility called fps limiter that do the same thing, but unfortunately don't support dx10/dx11.

Intel Core i7 2600k @ 4.5 + ASUS P8P67 Evo + 2 x 4GB GSKILL RIPJAWS-X + ASUS GTX580 SLI + DELL U2711

#3
Posted 05/29/2011 11:26 PM   
i agree. vsync just doesn't cut it. more often then not, it makes the game turn into a sluggish mess with mouse delay all over the place. a proper fps cap is really great, especially when it's part of the card feature as it can limit the heat production and power consumption without vsync ridiculousness.

this is one of those things i thought would have come standard for video card drivers 3 years ago. but better late than never.
i agree. vsync just doesn't cut it. more often then not, it makes the game turn into a sluggish mess with mouse delay all over the place. a proper fps cap is really great, especially when it's part of the card feature as it can limit the heat production and power consumption without vsync ridiculousness.



this is one of those things i thought would have come standard for video card drivers 3 years ago. but better late than never.

#4
Posted 05/30/2011 07:08 AM   
+1 to wanting this feature built in the driver
+1 to wanting this feature built in the driver

Ashio

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#5
Posted 05/30/2011 08:56 AM   
[quote name='jaafaman' date='30 May 2011 - 10:09 AM' timestamp='1306710560' post='1244099']
Perhaps you could explain how a DX/OpenGL movie capture app can limit frame rates on a game?...
[/quote]

entrapping the Dx calls and artificially limiting the draw rate.

however, alot of games cannot be capped (i mean... most can but....) they end up slowing video sequences and input as well.

[quote] i agree. vsync just doesn't cut it. more often then not, it makes the game turn into a sluggish mess with mouse delay all over the place. a proper fps cap is really great, especially when it's part of the card feature as it can limit the heat production and power consumption without vsync ridiculousness.[/quote]

Its not so much just vsync, but vsync + frame rate =^60

if you capped the game to 57fps (triplebuffering required) vsync will have almost no noticeable input lag, you'll get the same effect from a 120hz lcd.

the reasoning higher than 60fps causes input lag is that additional latency occurs where frame tearing would occur, so what should be 16ms of latency, becomes 24ms at some instances.

a 120hz display bumps up to 12ms where a tear would occur which is lower than the interval for 60hz.

[quote]There's another utility called fps limiter that do the same thing, but unfortunately don't support dx10/dx11. [/quote]

TommTi SSAA Tool can do fps limiting in D3D10/11, its a little trickier to use though as they go for a driver service approach, rather than a hooking dll.
[quote name='jaafaman' date='30 May 2011 - 10:09 AM' timestamp='1306710560' post='1244099']

Perhaps you could explain how a DX/OpenGL movie capture app can limit frame rates on a game?...





entrapping the Dx calls and artificially limiting the draw rate.



however, alot of games cannot be capped (i mean... most can but....) they end up slowing video sequences and input as well.



i agree. vsync just doesn't cut it. more often then not, it makes the game turn into a sluggish mess with mouse delay all over the place. a proper fps cap is really great, especially when it's part of the card feature as it can limit the heat production and power consumption without vsync ridiculousness.




Its not so much just vsync, but vsync + frame rate =^60



if you capped the game to 57fps (triplebuffering required) vsync will have almost no noticeable input lag, you'll get the same effect from a 120hz lcd.



the reasoning higher than 60fps causes input lag is that additional latency occurs where frame tearing would occur, so what should be 16ms of latency, becomes 24ms at some instances.



a 120hz display bumps up to 12ms where a tear would occur which is lower than the interval for 60hz.



There's another utility called fps limiter that do the same thing, but unfortunately don't support dx10/dx11.




TommTi SSAA Tool can do fps limiting in D3D10/11, its a little trickier to use though as they go for a driver service approach, rather than a hooking dll.



In Memory of Chris "ChrisRay" Arthington, 1982-2010

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#6
Posted 05/30/2011 09:44 AM   
Thanks again, Sora...

Thanks again, Sora...


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Stock is Extreme now

#7
Posted 05/30/2011 11:46 AM   
i want this too
i want this too

#8
Posted 05/30/2011 01:34 PM   
Sounds like a neat feature; but I just want to inform you that you might get better results using triple buffering or limiting pre-rendered frames. Triple buffering generally does not incur input lag nearly as bad as vsync alone. If a game supports it, or you force it with utility like D3DOverrider (included in RivaTuner), this should result in a tear free, butter smooth frame rate. Also for some games too many pre-rendered frames (like UT3, BFBC2, etc) causes input lag or generally slow performance since so much is being rendered ahead. Try forcing 0 or 1.

As for a frame-limiter, it's unlikely that NV would introduce a non-standard option like that, since there's no precedent for it in any video card driver I can remember, plus you'd think marketing people would hate it too :).
Sounds like a neat feature; but I just want to inform you that you might get better results using triple buffering or limiting pre-rendered frames. Triple buffering generally does not incur input lag nearly as bad as vsync alone. If a game supports it, or you force it with utility like D3DOverrider (included in RivaTuner), this should result in a tear free, butter smooth frame rate. Also for some games too many pre-rendered frames (like UT3, BFBC2, etc) causes input lag or generally slow performance since so much is being rendered ahead. Try forcing 0 or 1.



As for a frame-limiter, it's unlikely that NV would introduce a non-standard option like that, since there's no precedent for it in any video card driver I can remember, plus you'd think marketing people would hate it too :).

#9
Posted 05/31/2011 03:45 AM   
Well said phobos. I think we can safely say that such a feature is not going to happen, regardless of how many "signatures" you get. I mean, when is the last time nvidia added some random feature from the forum wishlist?
Well said phobos. I think we can safely say that such a feature is not going to happen, regardless of how many "signatures" you get. I mean, when is the last time nvidia added some random feature from the forum wishlist?

"This is your code. These are also your bugs. Really. Yes, the API runtime and the
driver have bugs, but this is not one of them. Now go fix it already." -fgiesen

#10
Posted 05/31/2011 10:37 AM   
If there's no demand, it's obvious that isn't added. And regarding vsync+triple buffer comment, unless you have 60 or plus framerate, the game will stutter with both options on, no matter what you do.
If there's no demand, it's obvious that isn't added. And regarding vsync+triple buffer comment, unless you have 60 or plus framerate, the game will stutter with both options on, no matter what you do.

Intel Core i7 2600k @ 4.5 + ASUS P8P67 Evo + 2 x 4GB GSKILL RIPJAWS-X + ASUS GTX580 SLI + DELL U2711

#11
Posted 05/31/2011 11:12 AM   
I have seen petitions many pages longer than this one. "Demand" is never enough either. About that "stuttering" problem with vsync + triple buffer, it must be something that I never noticed and/or doesn't bother me. Or perhaps it's just that screen tearing bothers me worse.
I have seen petitions many pages longer than this one. "Demand" is never enough either. About that "stuttering" problem with vsync + triple buffer, it must be something that I never noticed and/or doesn't bother me. Or perhaps it's just that screen tearing bothers me worse.

"This is your code. These are also your bugs. Really. Yes, the API runtime and the
driver have bugs, but this is not one of them. Now go fix it already." -fgiesen

#12
Posted 05/31/2011 11:19 AM   
[quote name='narciso' date='31 May 2011 - 10:12 PM' timestamp='1306840334' post='1244722']
And regarding vsync+triple buffer comment, unless you have 60 or plus framerate, the game will stutter with both options on, no matter what you do.
[/quote]

FALSE. this is not true at all.

[quote name='phobos' date='31 May 2011 - 02:45 PM' timestamp='1306813558' post='1244619']
Sounds like a neat feature; but I just want to inform you that you might get better results using triple buffering or limiting pre-rendered frames. Triple buffering generally does not incur input lag nearly as bad as vsync alone. If a game supports it, or you force it with utility like D3DOverrider (included in RivaTuner), this should result in a tear free, butter smooth frame rate. Also for some games too many pre-rendered frames (like UT3, BFBC2, etc) causes input lag or generally slow performance since so much is being rendered ahead. Try forcing 0 or 1.

As for a frame-limiter, it's unlikely that NV would introduce a non-standard option like that, since there's no precedent for it in any video card driver I can remember, plus you'd think marketing people would hate it too :).
[/quote]

I was discussing this with infinity7 and alot of what i said made it back into guru3d's discussion, so check [url="http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?t=343712&page=2"]http://forums.guru3d...t=343712&page=2[/url]

basically
1. Max Prerender has barely any impact with the latest cpu's as games are mostly GPU limited now, rather than cpu limited (unless you own amd where the draw call rate can saturate the cpu)
2. Triplebuffering DOES NOT reduce input lag caused by vsynching a very high frame rate. and in D3D it increases the lag as it increases the DirectX frame queue (works in addition to the driver queue). OpenGL triplebuffering does not increase the OpenGL frame queue, and does not increase the latency over double buffering. The only lag resolved by triple buffering is the period of mouse smoothing between a high and low frame rate, for instance dropping from 60hz to 30hz due to screen complexity, the triplebuffered game will get less lag in this situation, but a frame cap + triplebuffering will remove any excess latency caused by the input smoothing.
3. Vsync applied to an excessive frame rate has to wait a full frame (and at times a frame and a half if tearing is present without vsync) for the video to reflect player input. Keeping the frame rate just under vsync (56-58fps depending on game engine) prevents the vsync input lag as the frames are displayed as they are output from the gpu, with vsync preventing tearing.

Only in some games does the max prerender make a difference, and in these cases it is where the frame rate is below the refresh rate.


Fraps is a bad way to measure double buffered frame rates as it tends to average the frame rate when its jumping between 30 and 60.
[quote name='narciso' date='31 May 2011 - 10:12 PM' timestamp='1306840334' post='1244722']

And regarding vsync+triple buffer comment, unless you have 60 or plus framerate, the game will stutter with both options on, no matter what you do.





FALSE. this is not true at all.



[quote name='phobos' date='31 May 2011 - 02:45 PM' timestamp='1306813558' post='1244619']

Sounds like a neat feature; but I just want to inform you that you might get better results using triple buffering or limiting pre-rendered frames. Triple buffering generally does not incur input lag nearly as bad as vsync alone. If a game supports it, or you force it with utility like D3DOverrider (included in RivaTuner), this should result in a tear free, butter smooth frame rate. Also for some games too many pre-rendered frames (like UT3, BFBC2, etc) causes input lag or generally slow performance since so much is being rendered ahead. Try forcing 0 or 1.



As for a frame-limiter, it's unlikely that NV would introduce a non-standard option like that, since there's no precedent for it in any video card driver I can remember, plus you'd think marketing people would hate it too :).





I was discussing this with infinity7 and alot of what i said made it back into guru3d's discussion, so check http://forums.guru3d...t=343712&page=2



basically

1. Max Prerender has barely any impact with the latest cpu's as games are mostly GPU limited now, rather than cpu limited (unless you own amd where the draw call rate can saturate the cpu)

2. Triplebuffering DOES NOT reduce input lag caused by vsynching a very high frame rate. and in D3D it increases the lag as it increases the DirectX frame queue (works in addition to the driver queue). OpenGL triplebuffering does not increase the OpenGL frame queue, and does not increase the latency over double buffering. The only lag resolved by triple buffering is the period of mouse smoothing between a high and low frame rate, for instance dropping from 60hz to 30hz due to screen complexity, the triplebuffered game will get less lag in this situation, but a frame cap + triplebuffering will remove any excess latency caused by the input smoothing.

3. Vsync applied to an excessive frame rate has to wait a full frame (and at times a frame and a half if tearing is present without vsync) for the video to reflect player input. Keeping the frame rate just under vsync (56-58fps depending on game engine) prevents the vsync input lag as the frames are displayed as they are output from the gpu, with vsync preventing tearing.



Only in some games does the max prerender make a difference, and in these cases it is where the frame rate is below the refresh rate.





Fraps is a bad way to measure double buffered frame rates as it tends to average the frame rate when its jumping between 30 and 60.



In Memory of Chris "ChrisRay" Arthington, 1982-2010

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#13
Posted 05/31/2011 12:42 PM   
I find that optimal solution is to cap the framerate to the minimum you get in game and enable vsync. This remove tearing and provides stutter free gaming, because there's no framerate fluctuation.
When gaming with vsync without frame capping I immediately feel the slowdown as soon as framerate drops, even by 5 fps.
When framerate is always higher than 60 fps, I usually enable vsync, and gameplay is super smooth.
I find that optimal solution is to cap the framerate to the minimum you get in game and enable vsync. This remove tearing and provides stutter free gaming, because there's no framerate fluctuation.

When gaming with vsync without frame capping I immediately feel the slowdown as soon as framerate drops, even by 5 fps.

When framerate is always higher than 60 fps, I usually enable vsync, and gameplay is super smooth.

Intel Core i7 2600k @ 4.5 + ASUS P8P67 Evo + 2 x 4GB GSKILL RIPJAWS-X + ASUS GTX580 SLI + DELL U2711

#14
Posted 05/31/2011 01:11 PM   
[quote name='narciso' date='01 June 2011 - 12:11 AM' timestamp='1306847463' post='1244790']
1. I find that optimal solution is to cap the framerate to the minimum you get in game and enable vsync. This remove tearing and provides stutter free gaming, because there's no framerate fluctuation.
2. When gaming with vsync without frame capping I immediately feel the slowdown as soon as framerate drops, even by 5 fps.
3. When framerate is always higher than 60 fps, I usually enable vsync, and gameplay is super smooth.
[/quote]

1. This is true, and in games like starcraft 2, you can increase your gfx effects because theres more free gpu cycles
2. this depends on game engines, AC2 becomes laggy at 30fps (from 60fps) but oblivion scales from 20-60fps smoothly. Fable 3 has an internal cap to 30fps but it doesn't seem to help much at all and induces strange lag. I doubt the engine differs much from black and white 2's given that both games become slow has heck when an external frame cap is used.
3. This is where i find the most lag actually, but more or less depends on the game. CSS has a slight input lag with just vsync, but its not as drawn out as much as say.... Doom 3 or eduke32 or Homeworld 2 without the hardwarecursor switch. Homeworld 1 has major lag with vsync and it doesn't work with fps limiters opengl mode (the D3D output is D3D6/7 and uses 32bit Z, so you get a sharp slow down when you open the build menu) so no vsync is the best here.

Its more rare that i notice controller lag with a gamepad, as gamepad input has less latency to mouse and keyboard much of the time, but it saw it in DMC4, :p so i played most of the game with a 120fps cap. unfortunately it wasn't till after i finished it that i discovered SSAA Tool >.<., but i'll give it a try with Lost planet.
[quote name='narciso' date='01 June 2011 - 12:11 AM' timestamp='1306847463' post='1244790']

1. I find that optimal solution is to cap the framerate to the minimum you get in game and enable vsync. This remove tearing and provides stutter free gaming, because there's no framerate fluctuation.

2. When gaming with vsync without frame capping I immediately feel the slowdown as soon as framerate drops, even by 5 fps.

3. When framerate is always higher than 60 fps, I usually enable vsync, and gameplay is super smooth.





1. This is true, and in games like starcraft 2, you can increase your gfx effects because theres more free gpu cycles

2. this depends on game engines, AC2 becomes laggy at 30fps (from 60fps) but oblivion scales from 20-60fps smoothly. Fable 3 has an internal cap to 30fps but it doesn't seem to help much at all and induces strange lag. I doubt the engine differs much from black and white 2's given that both games become slow has heck when an external frame cap is used.

3. This is where i find the most lag actually, but more or less depends on the game. CSS has a slight input lag with just vsync, but its not as drawn out as much as say.... Doom 3 or eduke32 or Homeworld 2 without the hardwarecursor switch. Homeworld 1 has major lag with vsync and it doesn't work with fps limiters opengl mode (the D3D output is D3D6/7 and uses 32bit Z, so you get a sharp slow down when you open the build menu) so no vsync is the best here.



Its more rare that i notice controller lag with a gamepad, as gamepad input has less latency to mouse and keyboard much of the time, but it saw it in DMC4, :p so i played most of the game with a 120fps cap. unfortunately it wasn't till after i finished it that i discovered SSAA Tool >.<., but i'll give it a try with Lost planet.



In Memory of Chris "ChrisRay" Arthington, 1982-2010

CPU:Intel i7 920 @ 3.8(D0), Mainboard:Asus Rampage II Gene, Memory:12GB Corsair Vengeance 1600
Video:EVGA Geforce GTX 680+ 4GB, Sound:Creative XFI Titanium Fatal1ty Pro, Monitor:BenQ G2400WD
HDD:500GB Spinpoint F3, 1TB WD Black, 2TB WD Red, 1TB WD Black
Case:NZXT Guardian 921RB, PSU:Corsair 620HX, OS:Windows 7 SP1

#15
Posted 05/31/2011 01:33 PM   
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